Why not ball joint spacers.......

[Snowgeek]

As I have been researching suspension parts I see very few ball joint spacer conversations. It seams that Overland only recommends them if lifting 5" - 7". I come from the land of 2nd Gen 4runners and every one uses them in mid height lift to gain lift, relax the torsion bars, and increase flex. This all results in better ride feel and articulation than simply cranking the t-bars as it seems is the standard in the astro lift.

With that said I am curious if there are reasons the BJ spacers are not used and why it seems like there is very little conversation or trial of them for average height lifts.

Thanks

[1Gary]

Overland aside,a pipe spacer lift is the single neutral lift that does not stress OEM parts.



Yrs ago we used ball joint spacers in drag race cars and found it speeds the wear of the ball joints.I have seen spacers shear off some ball joints.My two cents is I wouldn't use them because I think they are dangerous.

[Snowgeek]

Thanks for the input, I would be interested in hearing other problems with them. I have only ever worked with them in Toyota land and amongst large groups of wheelers and forums there have seemed to be very few problems... lesser life span on the ball joints I am sure is true.

I guess the essence of the question goes back to "why there has seems to be so little experimentation with them on Astros when they are prevalent else where"

Ryan

[1Gary]

Ryan-Honestly I think there has been alot of trial and error on these vans and what your seeing is the results of the yrs of finding what works or not.The previous two owners of Overland did do alot of R & D on the vans.Guys here like Lifted(Dean) has done tons of R & D on the lifted/AWD topic.Me personally,I rode in Peter's pipe spacer 5 1/4 lifted van with I think it had 33's on it and he almost had to grab my collar to get me and these old legs into it.I knew right then and there there was no way I could drive a van like that on a regular basis.I want to run 29" tires on Ole Yellar,but I am limiting the pipe spacer's to 3".I don't like the step's on the side of a van because they do trap moisture and over time create rust on the rockers.I owned a 1985 that was a victim of that.

[mdmead]

The idea of this was confusing me... and after doing a little research, I don't think it can work on our vans.

My understanding is the Toys have their torsion bars mounted to the upper A-arms. If you put balljoint spacers on top of the upper ball joints (under the upper A-arms), this pushes the lower A-arms and spindles down, moving the tires down, creating the lift. (Cranking the bars would add more lift.)

Our vans have the torsion bar mounted to the bottom A-arm. Putting a spacer on top of the upper ball joint would appear to do nothing but change the alignment... and not in a positive way. (And putting a spacer on the bottom ball joint, if you could, would raise the tire higher into the wheelwell, decreasing lift.)

Am I missing something?

[Snowgeek]

@ mdmead - I think you might be on to something. On 1st and 2nd gen Toys the torsion bars are connected to the upper A arms. I am still new to the Astro thing, in fact I am in the process of buying my first one this weekend and have a lot of learning to do.

@ 1Gary - I am sure the R&D has been done and that the lifts available are the result of that. As a total rookie in the astro world I am working to understand what does and doesn't work and why.

Hopefully by Monday I will own a '04 Astro. Lift, tires, gears and a Colorado Camper Van top are to come over the next few months.

Ryan

[doyoulikeithere]

As I have been researching suspension parts I see very few ball joint spacer conversations. It seams that Overland only recommends them if lifting 5" - 7"

I just had a quick look, and I only see BJ Spacers for 2wd vans on Gerald's site.

I would like to try some on my AWD van, where can i get some?

[MountainManJoe]

By themselves, the pipe spacers Gary mentions adds zero to the clearance under the subframe. It does allow you to use larger tires which improves clearance, but it requires metal fabrication and you have to match it with a lift in the rear. As you can see, the work and cost can add up. Larger tires will also impact your acceleration.

The Overland kit is a very quick, easy, and affordable way to gain ground clearance. It includes hardware which allows you to relocate your upper balljoint to afford more articulation.

On side note, are any forum members here using the Overland re-indexed torsion keys?

[1Gary]

The clearance gained in a pipe spacer lift is by the increased tire size it allows and has no less clearance than any other lift system because of the rear end lift being the matching factor.So because the ground to rear end is the same on all lifts.The ball joint re-locators from Overland is used for a very good reason.It is because of the adverse effect that kind of lift has on the suspension.And the quicken wear on the suspension components.

My attraction to the pipe lift is it doesn't really effect any wear to the front end components.It is operating the same as if no lift was done,but lower.Now this state is almost completely true if it wasn't for a larger tire size and the increased pressure the puts on the front end parts.

Lockdoc has pretty much done it all on lifts with these vans and once posted one of the most honest statements about lifts of any kind saying All lifts short of SAS wear front end parts faster.

[doyoulikeithere]

The Overland kit is a very quick, easy, and affordable way to gain ground clearance. It includes hardware which allows you to relocate your upper balljoint to afford more articulation.

Timless, Are you runnung OLV BJ Spacers on your AWD van?
Did you use the OLV 2wd van BJ Spacers? or what?
I have not tried the re-index keys yet....

Again I point out that the overland lift kits make no mention of BJ Spacers for any AWD lift kits/vans that I could find.
OLV does very clearly list the BJ Spacers as "Included" in some 2wd Lift kits, and the actual BJ Spacer's "details" state that they are for 2wd vans..

Pipe/body lift is OK for putting on Big tires if you are only concerned with "Appearances"
If you want more useable clearance in front as well as better wheel travel etc (ie, you want to actually 4-wheel 'off road')
You will want more than just huge tires on a 'stock suspension' fittied by a body lift only.

No Matter what, its a family van designed for street, so, as said before, the only real good off road 4wd astro front end is a whole different design, either solid axle on leafs, or solid axle on a multi-link suspension. I would favour the 4 link coil susp but it is the hardest to do I Bet.

[MountainManJoe]

The clearance gained in a pipe spacer lift is by the increased tire size it allows and has no less clearance than any other lift system .... Lockdoc has pretty much done it all on lifts with these vans and once posted one of the most honest statements about lifts

How large a tire can you use with the pipe spacers, Gary? Do you happen to know where Lockdoc's post is?

The ball joint re-locators from Overland is used for a very good reason.It is because of the adverse effect that kind of lift has on the suspension.And the quicken wear on the suspension components.

I think the point of relocating the balljoint is to give it a greater range of movement.

Timless, Are you runnung OLV BJ Spacers on your AWD van?

I installed the "90-05 AWD Ball Joint Bolt Kit" (L9005-BJK).
http://www.overlandvans.com/0104_suspension.html (first item)
It is not a spacer. It's a set of nuts and bolts that you use to move the balljoint from the top to the bottom of the control arm. It was included with my AWD 4" lift kit.

[1Gary]

Peter used a 5 1/2 pipe spacer and had 33's on this van.

TB-it's enough that I told you what was posted by Lockdoc...............isn't it??.

[MountainManJoe]

33" tires would give you the same amount of ground clearance as the +4" OV kit. Only now you have massive tires. That puts more strain on the steering linkage. That reduces your braking ability. You probably have to cut both wheel well sides to make them fit . You'll need taller gearing to push them down the road. I can be done, but its more complicated and costly.

[1Gary]

Peter's must have had the correct back spacing because they looked like it was made for the truck.I assure you that with my pipe lift of only 3" the planed 29" tires are going to fit like a glove.

[LiftedAWDAstro]

Peter did the larger pipe lift to fit the 502 big block! He already had the meats on it beforehand. Going with the pipe lift allowed him to put the control arms at the proper position to lessen the stress on the suspension and steering. His wheels were custom made for his tire size and backspacing he wanted. They WERE made to fit!